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3D Geospatial Viewers - part 1, recap on PV3D list

First, this is a recap on a PV3D list dialog that went on for about a week starting on March 16, 2008.

Second, this site went down, and lost the database, and when it finally went up, I started seeing search returns on Away3D and Java 3D on my blog stats.  Rather than disappoint anyone, I pulled my notes from emails and reposted what I had. the debate did get heated, and tried to keep just the outline of key points which most agreed on.

The debat mostly favors Papervision 3D, as most feel the effort is worthwhile. As such, please recognize the following key people who contribute to the overall development:

 
as well as
  • Mr.doob
  • De’Angelo Richardson
  • Tink
  • Seb-Lee Delisle
  • The following is an outline of a discussion which started on a comparison between Papervision3D and Java3d, and led into some other viewers.

    a)      Harley:

    i)        There is no comparison and look at those guys digging?

    ii)       The primary difference is PV3D is based on the Painter’s Algorithm

    iii)     Java3d uses scene graph, same as OSG or Adobe 3d

    (1)   I seem to remember using this a few years ago and was not impressed… but I was also looking at Octaga, mediamachine, and others. 

    (2)   Tried to get this going with no luck.. all of the uploads are atleast 2 years old.

    iv)     PV3D Designer Implementation is not on par with other applications (I need to retract “substantial functionality far better…” comment primarily because of the all the flash development already in place which PVD3 applies, as well as APE, and implementation is easier for users… because I am able to use it. :^)

    v)      Designer Implementation and Interface

    (1)   Shockwave, using Director…

    (a)    Note: I own the latest director and still don’t use it, so not true, heck of a time getting anything to work well, however, there is a French company that produced ground/imagery mapping on dems as well as, textured buildings. http://v3d.pagesjaunes.fr/rennes/

    (2)   Viewpoint, using enliven or scene builder

    (a)    Note: easy to deploy, but not open source and I have seen some fine work. Because the source is not open, I think incorporation of APE or physic engines is not possible.

    (b)   Not sure why someone has not implemented something similar to shockwave above?

    (3)   Adobe 3D

    (a)    Note: easy to deploy multiple shading

    (4)   Embedding of external plugins through the Iframe, this is not possible in any other vm that I know of.

    b)      Trevor:

    i)        PV3D and Java 3d require a plugin to work with a browser and each has it’s own VM.

    ii)       The primary difference is PV3D is written in AS while JAVA3d is in java.

    iii)     JVM is faster than AVM

    (1)   Resulting in a faster 3d rendering

    (a)    Note: Can you check on this.. if PV3D is Painter’s Algorithm which  is pretty old idea, as it’s drawing every pixel within a polygon not necessarily in order.  It can be inefficient with more polygons drawing every polygon more than once or those polygons not visible.

    (b)   Scene graph is a hierarchal data model so, by nature is very efficient to draw.. cad programs have been using this for some time too.

    iv)     Java vs AS

    (1)   Similar languages syntactically

    (2)   AS on the client side

    c)      Java on the server side

    d)      Kim:

    i)        Java uses opengl and directx in some instances

    ii)       Ease of distribution is key

    e)      Mark:

    i)        Java3d would be quicker because vm can use graphics card

    ii)       PV3D is more successful because of flash vm

    iii)     Quick time VR, Vrml various proprietary engines all failed because users do not want to download software where most already have flash content.

    (1)   Note: there is a trust factor here too. Adobe pdf software is frequently downloaded and required software, flash is trusted already but bolstered also because of the adobe label, I would say the same about apple.

    (2)   The java3d required an applet as well as the jvm and currently doesn’t work with my drivers. which could be another issue.

    (3)   Flash vm is the player so less uploades

    (4)   Adobe acrobat 3d requires an upgrade currently

    (5)   Quicktime vr is built into quicktime viewer

    (6)   Vrml, gvrml, are both deprecated or evolved to x3d, but yes, these players require downloads too by less than trusted vendors.

    (7)   Google Earth required install desktop app, not so sure but I don’t remember needing to install for map or for street front imagery or oblique

    (8)   Microsoft required install of plugin and a reboot to view virtual earth in browser.

    iv)     Many on line solutions have failed because users don’t want to install

    v)      And Not interested in 3D phones..

    (1)   Unless you can combine your tom tom with an I phone and get street level details and pay for you car parking in advance.

    f)        Ash:

    i)        Java is installed on most machines where as flash is not by default.

    (1)   Note: Right, this is true, but even the 3d applet required additional installation of the applet.

    (2)    

    ii)       PV3D requires the latest version and the average Joe/jo … would be required to upload a new version.

    (1)   Note: please note that the flex 2 or 3 and CS3 flash implementations will nicely prompt users of flash to upgrade using the warm logo of Adobe.. this is key, since every office secretary thinks you need to have adobe.

    iii)     Client’s don’t want to pay if older versions of flash are not supported. Ouch!

    (1)   This is a valid concern and this really is difficult

    (2)   Try selling Adobe instead of flash, they might buy the ideology of Adobe better than flash.

    (3)   Also, you should remind everyone that users are downloading flash for internet movies and are more likely now to have current versions… see RED5 or just watch an episode of lost on ABC.com and you get the latest version of flash 9

    g)      Bundle the content for the web along with the pdf.. they need to install both. It sounds stupid, but everyone will wait for adobe to install.

    h)      Tarwin:

    i)        PV3D Developers are Crazy and Insane People

    (1)   (and we mean this in a good way)

    (2)   3D content is massive amount of work

    (3)   Learning curve is high for 3D implementation

    (4)   Technology Sector is following the similar trends of past creative ramp up times and cost…?

    ii)       High end web, rich internet applications, in flash is easier to sell to advertising agencies.

    iii)     Java3d is used for some unknown games, but flash has the advantage easier to learn, implement, and broad developer and designer base

    (1)   Note: The pool of developers and designers might be the best answer yet

     

    Tomcat Developers…Take Note!

    If your like me, you use Tomcat to develop applications along with apache, php, and some other open source tech stuff.  If you are, please take this advice and apply the following advice right now!

    Stop TomCat and edit the tomcat-users.xml file in tomcat’s ./conf directory by deleting any users you don’t use and change the admin user name and password.”

    Simple to install and get running on my laptop, I never intend to use my development machine for any production… just testing.  Of course I needed to open some ports to test from outside the firewall.. oops.. bad Idea.

    Since about July, someone from a Chinese located IP has been exploiting the tomcat manager application. This morning I was hit at 8:12am.  Apparently, this is an automated tool, which scans for port 8080 activity and then attempts to log into manager and deposit a nice little war file called fexshell.war and of course tomcat opens the application straight away.  In looking around, others are starting to take note: see David Tylers post.  Then there is these articles about Chinese hackers:

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/03/07/china.hackers/index.html

    http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9078778

    Why is it okay for these guys to be able to continue getting access to our Internet?

    Another article from 4x Security Team.. http://4xsecurityteam.blogspot.com/2008/08/exploit-code-published-for-apache.html

    Apparently, there is a need to upgrade from tomcat5.5 to 6.x

    After some more research, I found an interesting site.. you can find the link on your own.. darkmindz.com 

    they provide articles about serious exploits and examples of the exploit. Even though the site does link to known “bad sites” the site is safe… as much as I can tell.

    good luck. and be careful out there.

    Tagged

    Nothing Like A Clean Page!

    I know it’s still November, but I couldn’t wait for the new year to start a new blog.  If you like the old content, sorry, it’s gone.

    Don’t worry, before long, we will have filled this blog out completely.